'Theft of public funds was a shameful thing back then'

You will be making 79 in November. With the benefit of hindsight, has Independence been worth it?
Independence was a positive development that came at the right time. Colonialism was no longer viable. But, I am not sure whether we have successfully utilised Independence to the advantage of the majority of the people.
What was the excitement like in the masses at the time?
There was apprehension among the public on what Independence meant. I was in Senior Two and living in rural Ntungamo. The ordinary people sought us out to inquire about Independence. Even at the Senior Two level they thought we knew something they did not know.
They asked, ‘But you young people, if the Bazungu go away, what shall we do? We cannot even make a needle or a cloth. Will we go back to the ways we used to have?’ Although there was a lot of anxiety, there was no opposition to Independence.
What about the educated people? Did they expect any major changes?
The educated did not expect much to change on the political scene. And, indeed, there was almost no change. The Governor (Sir Walter Coutts) was immediately sworn in as the Governor General, which was a bit confusing.
But after the Kabaka Yeka and Uganda Peoples Congress alliance, the Governor General was replaced with Kabaka (Edward Frederick) Muteesa II as president. Whatever happened afterwards is not the way we expected things to go.
The service delivery system inherited from the British seems to have been robust.
In the whole of independent African, the Ministry of Planning and Economic Development was the most prominent because it was expected that the act of transferring power would herald economic development. Every country had development plans and in the initial years, there was a lot of positivity.
Education opportunities increased for those of us who were in school. If it had not been for Independence, maybe many of us would not have progressed to the university level. At A-Level, we got scholarships from our local (federal) governments.
When I joined the University of East Africa, there were already specialisations. University of Nairobi offered Architecture, Engineering and Veterinary courses, while those who wanted to study Law attended the University of Dar es Salaam. Makerere University specialised in Medicine, Education and Agriculture.
There was discipline immediately after colonialism. Corruption had not yet slipped into the national fabric. We actually heard of chiefs who committed suicide because they had cash shortages. Theft of public funds was still a shameful thing back then.
What was the genesis of the downward trend?
The tremours that shook the central government in 1966 destabilised everything, which eventually, led to the 1971 coup. I was a graduate at the time. Mine was the last cohort in 1970 before the University of East Africa broke up.
(President Julius) Nyerere had said he was willing to delay the independence of Tanganyika if the three countries would unite. Today, the East African Community is more of a slogan. I do not think anyone thinks that union is going to happen anytime soon.
When I was a student in Nairobi, I would withdraw money from my Post Office account at the same rate in Nairobi and Kampala. Today, the currencies do not relate even if they are both called shillings. Our exports are always stranded at the border with Kenya, denied entry.
After 1966, the quality of governance deteriorated and I believe that was the biggest mistake we made as a country. The promises of development were frustrated. Ethnicity, which was previously not pronounced, came to the forefront.
There is nothing wrong with identifying with your tribe…
Yes, but nowadays it is too pronounced, and the (regime’s) reaction to it has been to increase the size of Parliament to accommodate the many ethnic groups coming up. You have seen it in the division of Buganda (Kingdom).
Up until a certain time, most of the people in Buganda were Baganda. And then, they discovered something in Kayunga and Nakasongola. In Kooki, which came to Buganda willingly, people are emphasising differences. The increase of ethnic groups was manifest in the amendment of the Constitution in 2005, when a number of groups came up.
What have been some of the positive aspects of Independence that we can look to today?
I am not sure. Maybe the increase in the number of schools, although the quality of the population is questionable. The buying power of the population is also very small and that is because we missed out on the development aspect. The definition of poverty in this country is not very difficult to conceptualise.
You have 80 percent of the population tilling the land and generating less than 20 percent of the GDP. That is the real definition of poverty. You have a service industry that is dominated by boda boda riders and rolex (chapatti) makers. And that is supposed to be the biggest industry after agriculture?
We have doctors who are demonstrating to be employed and lawyers who cannot be [or struggle to be] admitted to the Law Development Centre. What happens to them? You cannot lead people into a blind alley.
What would you advise the government to do about the number of unemployed youth?
The bottleneck of poverty has created an explosive situation. You cannot have young people growing up with nothing to do. That is dangerous. Politics is now the biggest employer and election have become very competitive and deadly.
Even if you quarrel about the standard of education, there is now a critical mass of educated people with skills that can help the country. Unfortunately, we have not worked out a way to help these people utilise their skills. The way forward is to have a national conversation about these issues.
In other words, it is not yet Uhuru?
Independence is still provisional because we still have to make the national budget according to approvals from the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Those are direct instruments of (United States of) America.
If you were appointed minister of Finance, your first visit would be with the representative of the IMF [International Monetary Fund] and World Bank in the country. Those are the actual powers that be. So, colonialism is still there, and it is now cheaper for them because we are now administering it. They do not need to hire a governor general to live here.
If you were to have a cup of tea with President Museveni, what would you discuss with him?
I would raise the issue of governance because it is worrying. I read social media posts and increasingly, the young people are restless. They look at corruption – which rather than being tackled, is increasing – and see that even where evidence can easily be assembles, nothing is being done. We are seeing emotive discussions on ethnicity, nepotism and tribalism. A national conversation on these cannot happen until the incumbent authorities agree to it.
What do you think is your legacy to Uganda?
Well, I have been fortunate to serve in institutions that required integrity and I could provide it. I participated in the struggles against the Amin regime in the 1970s and even then, my character was already known.
In 1986, I was appointed IGG [Inspector General of Government] and that office required integrity. My legacy was that I put that institution in place and it is still there, whether it is still fulfilling its role or not. I became the first chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee in Parliament in 1996. In the five years I held that position, I put in place systems that are still being followed today.
What are your parting shots to Ugandans?
We really need to examine our electoral system. There is a permanent complaint of monetisation of elections. We have also failed to have proper representation of the weaker segments of the population. For instance, how can five people represent all the youth in Uganda in Parliament? Can you pinpoint what they have done for the youth so far? The same goes to the women and workers’ representatives.
Lastly, we must develop the capacity to talk to each other. People are quarrelling; even in Parliament. I have seen someone bringing a law to overthrow the Leader of Opposition. I have seen lack of dialogue even in cultural institutions. Why would clan leaders be at loggerheads with the cultural establishment?
Then, there is the issue of language. Where there should be dialogues, there is a lot of abuse. I cannot even talk about my age group because people will call us a spent force. In fact, if you publish this, you may find people saying, ‘Who is that one now? What does he have to tell us?’
Where are our opinion leaders, religious leaders and cultural leaders, who used to be respected but are now scorned? We have a big problem because now, there is no authority on anything.